[Helix Ninjutsu] - Suggestion {FINISHED}

Discussion in 'Scroll' started by SuKyru, Mar 30, 2017.

?

Support this scroll?

  1. yea sure

    86.2%
  2. nope

    13.8%
  1. SuKyru

    SuKyru Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2017
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    35
    ok but you missed the entire point of that paragraph. It was saying that Ninjutsu scrolls (you know, the scrolls that are NINJUTSU and SPECIFICALLY NINJUTSU) have recently been dumbed down to be Flashy Overpowered Killjoy. I was not trying to rat on Shadow or Marang, but you seemed to think i meant that "Sage Rip-off" and "Exocore Substitute" was referring to most scrolls, EVEN THOUGH i clearly stated only Ninjutsu scrolls. Then you bring up s-tier which has nothing to do with the Creators Notes. Lasty the KKKPK is supposed to be a Fencer, though it can be used as a juggle or knockback; I am trying to add variety to the scroll's arsenal so that players wont seem limited in their options, and will have multiple combos for multiple situations
     
  2. SuKyru

    SuKyru Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2017
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    35
    though i do understand what you're trying to say, and i agree. I was not trying to make an S-Tier scroll or even an A-Tier, i was trying to fix the path that Ninjutsu Scrolls (specifically) were going down, because their potential could be much more than what we are being given.
     
  3. SuKyru

    SuKyru Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2017
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    35
    Yea i guess you're right. Regular, Plum, Infinite, and Blood Wind Ninjutsu are definitely on par with Shadow and Marang, no differences at all in power, and they all have the same capabilities and basically same move sets that they shouldn't even be distinguished from another. Thanks for correcting me
     
  4. OchiSama

    OchiSama Clean Up Crew

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2016
    Messages:
    288
    Likes Received:
    262
    You forgot Dark Haze
     
  5. SuKyru

    SuKyru Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2017
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    35
    yea but dark haze is ACTUALLY on par with Shadow and Marang. thats why i left it out
     
  6. uNote

    uNote Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2016
    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    58
    i don't think he was trying to offend you. i think he was just trying to point out how stupid your statement was o.o
     
  7. Tengu

    Tengu Creator of Savate

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2016
    Messages:
    1,175
    Likes Received:
    1,579
    You do realize Blood Wind Ninjitsu was hands down the best A+ tier scroll in OGP, is still in the top5 of A+ tier scrolls 5-6 years later, and is far better than Marang which barely makes the A- tier list, right? Marang is a scrub punisher (max damage in the low 600s...) held up by a >>G with a slightly generous hitbox, nothing more. Even Muhon's Ninjitsu (suggested in '08) is a higher tier than Marang. Also Dark Haze sits between #5 and #9 on the A+ depending on which tier list youre looking at (links below) and has never, ever been placed in the S- tier amongst the likes of Shadow Nin's every other attack being uncounterable nor even put at a higher tier placement than BWN.

    http://forums.playredfox.com/index.php?threads/all-purpose-scroll-tier-list.26827/#post-207494
    http://rfscrolls.pbworks.com/w/page/44168161/Tier List

    Lets break this down in detail

    PPPK
    To be brief your whole combo has miniature sage arcing hitboxes (1-2 vertical, 3-4 linear) which makes juggle catches and angling respectively very, VERY easy. This combo has the best parts of White Fang's punch hitboxes with the best parts of Tempest's hitboxes. The only thing this combo is missing is the KKKK's finisher to ensure whoever you caught in a drop/catch juggle always eats the finisher.

    KKKK
    This combo is pointless/purposeless and should never be used over the KKKP/KKKPK which not only sets up for a juggle but has better angling, is safer and does more damage than the KKKK, hence me saying this combo should be cut and have it's finisher moved to a different combo where it could still live up to it's maximum potential i.e. PPPK's or KKKPK's finishers which are very vanilla.

    KKKPK
    Well your launcher is as easy as White Fang's (KKKP) because you dont have to exit the combo until after your 3rd button (i.e. not a K(G+K)K or KPPP/KKPP launcher) and it's protected so its even better. This and the PPPK alone makes the scroll functionally superior to White Fang in every way because you already have it's 1-2 punches and kicks which are one of it's best selling points.

    KKPKP
    10/10

    KP
    The 2nd kick-rooted launcher. This is what really blurs the lines on power here. No scroll has 2 kick combo launchers without charging it up, much less 2 launchers where 1 is literally White Fang's but better and the other is a "2hit oh ****" BU launcher with a little float time to avoid low hitbox from hitting you before you can hit them making it easy to trade and get your free BU.

    kGK
    I have no idea what this combo does more so than the others because none of your combos have a description of speed, stun and recovery ratios. Are both hits a ground hit? What can it land after? It kinda reminds me of Libre's kGP (not a good ground hit btw) but without the movement to catch up to them to make your ground hit land so in my opinion this ties Libre and Plum for the most functionally bad ground hit, maybe even worse. Also like I said earlier having 3 launchers is a 100% chance way to get your scroll boxed. Also also you listed this as a kGK but I'm pretty sure you meant kGP.
    Either way this combo needs more purpose/options.

    >>G
    10/10 easily the best thing the scroll has to offer in terms of functionality and in giving the scroll something unique only it does but keep in mind Aikido can do the same thing by turning so it's not truly unique.

    Grab
    The grab is fine but your scroll should have at MINIMUM one thing that isnt recycled from the game that only it has i.e. Savate was designed intentionally recycled but still has a handful of unique kick combo animations.
    Also I checked Abyss and that grab only does 190 damage which isnt bad considering this attack is the only one on the scroll with distance short enough to actually be ground hit.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
    Yukoto likes this.
  8. Tengu

    Tengu Creator of Savate

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2016
    Messages:
    1,175
    Likes Received:
    1,579
    I will say tho that the scroll does live up to your personal decrip of the scroll requiring a degree of skill to use (to an extent) with all it's mixers and advancing movements but at a certain point the required level of skill becomes negligible when it has 3 really good kick based launcher to lay on the hurt.

    By the way I totally have been forgetting to mention this but I love the amount of left elbow strikes in this scroll.

    Late Ideas
    Cut your 2nd punch and move your 4th kick to the punch combo making it a PPKK making it's hitboxes vertical-horizontal-horizontal-vertical as opposed to a vert-vert-horiz-horiz PPPK which is far easier to control and perform without mashing thru. This way it's also not directly using White Fang's 1-2.
     
    Yukoto likes this.
  9. Tengu

    Tengu Creator of Savate

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2016
    Messages:
    1,175
    Likes Received:
    1,579
    I missed this
    -Few things are more overpowered/killjoy than having both a KKKP stun launcher and a KP bu. Imagine if White Fang's launcher was a protected stun and it's KP bu'd instead of popping up. Scary. Not saying change it, just make it's speed-stun-recovery ratios balance it out.
    -I brought up the S- tier to because "most of the S- tier scrolls are player created" so you can "keep in mind that what you think isn't that great on paper may far exceed your expectations in game" because this scroll seems pretty damn strong.
    -Yes you have a lot of tools but some of them are redundant (KKKK < KKKPK/KKPKP) and they are all in your kick combos which has left your punch combos barren. You have 1 combo and it's basically a throw away because all it does is knockback, it doesnt even do more than 400 and it cant be ground hit. You see if this had your Helix Strike finisher it'd easily become the scrolls bread and butter damage combo while also freeing up another spot for a punch combo by removing the KKKK. It'd also make this scroll purely mixer combos requiring extreme skill.

    Joke Idea
    Make the PPPK a PPPKK and add to the KP a 3input aerial finish combo (think Infinite Barrage Ninjitsu) and make it a scroll full of 5input oddball long combos similar to how Fearless is all 4inputs :cool: Technically it'd still have a 2hit and a 4hit kick combo lol

    I know I put a lot of potential ideas out there but take what you will, take what you like.
     
    Yukoto likes this.
  10. Tyesin

    Tyesin Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    124
    I like! This is awesome! Also, in regards to what Tengu said about the 1-2's. Have you considered using DHN's 1st punch for the 1st punch input? I think that it would fit perfectly! For the 1st kick if you haven't already. Have you considered BWN's? Or maybe regular Ninjutsu? I think either of those could mesh nicely also! Anywho, I support!
     
  11. SuKyru

    SuKyru Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2017
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    35
    ~Post Update~
    - IGN Change: Shoko

    Suggestions regarding the scroll are being worked on and will be posted later today.
     
    Tyesin likes this.
  12. SuKyru

    SuKyru Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2017
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    35
    ~Scroll Update~
    - Removed KKKK Combo
    - Removed Kg K
    - Removed Grab (temporary; grab suggestions available)
    - Added PPPKK
    [​IMG]
    - Added Kg
    [​IMG]

    I've reviewed Tengu's concerns with the scroll, and i do agree with most of what he said. I've changed the PPPK to be a PPPKK aerial finish combo, and completely removed the KKKK combo. Even though that is not what he exactly suggested, i feel that his opinion makes sense. As he stated, the KKKPK is a far more versatile combo than the KKKK, but i do not think switching it to a punch combo would accomplish much else. Yes, it may be easier to hit the punisher grapple, but that still does not change the fact that the KKKPK is a much better option. By removing the grapple, this allows for a much deadlier setup, because with no grapple the player isn't forced into an animation that can be punished quickly. To try and compensate for the punch combo's blandness, I've amped it up by changing it into a Fencer, where the PPPKK is a semi-launcher, similar to Kingpin's PPKKP, but a spin launch instead (like Volts PPP), and the PPPKK is a nice 3-hit downwards spike. I am aware that this may be an un-logical move on my part (considering that nearly 50% of the scroll is white fang) but i feel that this will add some sort of reasonable use in-game than a normal PPPK. Next i changed the Kg K to be an Un-blockable Kg move that replaces the grab and puts it into a much better use. The reason is because the scroll really doesn't need a ground hit, due to its long combos. So, by replacing the Grab into a Kg that is unblockable will make it a lot more useful, allowing players to get in a quick punish. The hitbox also isn't the greatest, so thinking about it like its muay boran's >>G or something along those lines wont be an issue because its sole purpose is to get quick punishes, but if a player misses it puts them into a risky situation. I will be taking suggestions on the scrolls grab; should there be one? or should it stay default?

    - EDIT-
    I've also upped the price of the scroll, since that if it's not boxed, it has to be at a price close to White Fang, considering that this scroll takes the selling points of White Fang and just enhances it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
  13. Draygashi

    Draygashi World Record (Al Hata), Clean Up Crew

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,854
    Likes Received:
    3,047
    NO, BRING BACK THE ORIGINAL KKKK COMBO
     
  14. Tengu

    Tengu Creator of Savate

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2016
    Messages:
    1,175
    Likes Received:
    1,579
    Or at least bring back the Helix Strike somewhere. In my opinion it was one of the best things in the scroll and a hybrid recycle that actually makes sense. If not that animation then how about Infinite Barrage's Izuna Drop as a PPPKK grapple finish? The White Fang kicks imo feel odd on your punch combo. Also if this scroll has two REALLY GOOD/EASY kick launchers it shouldnt have a launcher in the punch combo as well. It's over-stuffing the scroll with power tools.

    Grab Idea; the classic Ninjitsu scroll neck snap
    [​IMG]

    EDIT: Also if PPPKK is your juggle combo it's unwise to have such a low+straight hitbox with short active frames. If you want a prime example of this go buy Baguazhang and practice timing the PPKKK on a juggle.
     
  15. SuKyru

    SuKyru Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2017
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    35
    ~Scroll Update~
    - Added PPKKK (Brought Helix Strike back)
    [​IMG]

    Any concerns about the PPPKK combo being a juggle combo are false. The combo is a Fencer, but since it does not follow the traditional fencer animation, i classified it as a "Semi-Launcher" (see Kingpin's PPKKP for reference). This is because the player itself cannot start a juggle with that combo, but the opponent CAN be juggled since it provides ample time to do so. I feel that combo will be a much better asset to the scroll than a normal knockback.
     
  16. Tengu

    Tengu Creator of Savate

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2016
    Messages:
    1,175
    Likes Received:
    1,579
    Substitution idea
    Use Ninjitsu's 1st punch, 2nd punch and 3rd punch
    Use Dark Haze Ninjitsu's 4th kick as your PPPKK triple strike
    Use Infinite Barrage's kG animation for the grapple so its visually consistent with other scrolls since its a grapple
    Use Infinite Barrage's kG Izuna drop for the PPPKK finisher and make the grab the Pencak grab or the Ninja grab
    Use Ninjitsu's 1st kick
    Use Dark Haze Ninjitsu's 2nd kick (the spiral) in as many combos as you can put it
    Make the KP a 5input combo 2hit BU + 3aerial combo (Infinite Barrage style) to make the scroll have 5 5input combos
    Make your counter or kG involve the ninja log substitution trick somehow

    Something I neglected to mention earlier is that its good to recycle animations within youre own scroll i.e. Savate's KPPP and kGPPP has Savate's 2-3's reversed, the KKPK is the 2nd punch etc. Its also good to stick to Ninjitsu scrolls if youre doing a hybrid ninjitsu style.
     
  17. Draygashi

    Draygashi World Record (Al Hata), Clean Up Crew

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2016
    Messages:
    1,854
    Likes Received:
    3,047
    You actually can juggle off Kingpin's PPKKP. It was nerfed, but not fully patched as it can be done on a wall. Possibly on the back without a wall. It used to be able to be done without any help at all.

    Also, that would look better without the 3rd input.
     
  18. 12characters

    12characters Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2016
    Messages:
    597
    Likes Received:
    816
    it was way better a couple of days ago now its pretty lame
     
    Yukoto likes this.
  19. oGmarkV

    oGmarkV Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2016
    Messages:
    58
    Likes Received:
    31
    Basically what you're suggesting is yet another scroll with even more recycled moves. Honestly I thought NimoniX were the ones that ended up being out of ideas. Don't get me wrong, I really like how u put it together; looks amazing, but I'd rather see something completely unique. Too many recycled scrolls already
     
    Yukoto likes this.
  20. Panthaero

    Panthaero Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2016
    Messages:
    178
    Likes Received:
    272
    I really like the KKPKP and >>G, but that's it. I saw tengu mention Ninjutsu's first three punches. I've fallen back in love with it and would highly recommend them. Btw I feel like only having 5 input combos detracts from their individual utility, but that's me.
     
    12characters likes this.

Share This Page